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JAJ
Posts: 10751
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Posted:
26 Nov 2004 at 11:31 |
It's confusing enough when we have discussions on the difference between traditional and folk music but there would appear to be genres within genres.
I have been reading Issue One of the "The Scottish Fiddler" and there is an article there with the headline "Traditional Fiddling should be that, not gimmicks says Peter Zanre". Later in the article, he states "I'm worried about current trends in fiddling because there is too much Nova Scotian or Folk influence creeping in". Zanre appears to favour the approach of Slow air, march, strathspey and reel format which is the sort of thing you will hear in Fiddle & Accordian Club competitions etc. This, and the expected technique/playing style, is what he would describe as being traditional. This would appear to a fairly common view within these circles and I've often heard judges at competitions etc who differentiate between traditional and folk fiddling.
However, I would argue that a "free style" of playing-what they might describe as "folk" is every bit as traditional. In fact, I would regard it to be more so as the tunes are being passed down from one generation to another and between players as opposed to learned from the music. Also, Nova Scotia(By this, he probably means mainly Cape Breton styles) has its own tradition and is, arguably, more authentically Scottish than the rigid styles that have developed within the homeland over the last hundred years or so.
So, I don't know how you can really differentiate between traditional and folk fiddling. Surely, traditional fiddling isn't only the very rigid, often staid treatment of the music which you will hear at Fiddle competitions, Strathspey and Reel Societies, and in some Scottish dance bands. Surely, all the local styles in many cases learned informally and by ear are just as tradtional? I'd even regard many new compostions as part of traditional music, especially as many of them are written in that idiom and will pass into the tradition.
As a mainly self taught "folk" fiddler(their description), I'm personally quite glad that all these stuffy barriers are breaking down and most of us are listening to and enjoying music from all sources, cultures, and different styles, though you might not all agree. Any thoughts? |
J Low
Posts: 71
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Posted:
26 Nov 2004 at 12:26 |
As a fiddler myself John J, may I be so bold as to contribute...
I've come across many attitudes towards fiddlie styles, and what constitutes a 'good' or a 'not so good' fiddle player. What I can say is that there is no objective scale to work on - opinions are always subjective: one person's hero is another's cat-strangler.
There is certainly conflict of opinion between the older and the newer generation. Some younger players are better at dealing with this in a diplomatic fashion than others (no names!). I think without a doubt that many younger players are incorporating a lot of jazz and modern influences into their playing. The key to being welcome anywhere is to learn when it is appropriate to 'lose the head' as we affectionately call it in Glasgow, and when to tone down your playing to fit in with a more 'traditional' session.
Jazz influences in fiddle playing are by no means new though - think of Frankie Gavin, who's playing has always been full of double-stops and jazzy variations. I'll stick my neck out and say that, despite all the wonderful stuff coming out of the new wave of folk musicians in Scotland and beyond, I keep going back to albums by all my old favourites like Kevin Burke, paddy glackin, Charlie Lennon and others and find that nothing quite beats a jig or reel played with real clarity, tone and warmth.
One bugbear of mine is people who think that playing at a million miles an hour is somehow evidence of virtuosity. Of course, in some cases it is - I'm thinking Chris Stout for example. But I would refrain from calling someone an outstanding traditional fiddle player until I've heard them play the same tunes at a moderate pace. Playing slowly and well is actually much more a true test of your musicality, in my opinion. Everything about your playing - bow control, ornamentation, tone - is exposed. I certainly recommend to my few pupils that they make sure they can play something slowly first before they stand a hope of playing it quickly with any degree of competence.
Warble, warble...sorry folks! |
Rob_Steele
Posts: 58
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Posted:
26 Nov 2004 at 13:02 |
I was brought up in the Srathspey and Reel society idiom but now play what Mr Zanre would describe as 'folk' fiddle. IMHO it doesnt matter whether you are a 'folk' or 'trad' player, you are playing traditional music and keeping a tradition alive by moving it forwards as well as remembering what was played before.
Cheers
Dan |
Allan M
Posts: 4
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Posted:
26 Nov 2004 at 16:38 |
| I remember Peter being upset when one of his pupils lost out to Anna Massie when she won the Scott Skinner Trophy in Inverness a couple of years back. Anna had played Calum Breugach in an effervescent Cape Bretony style. Hopefully Scotland is a big enough country to have respect for several traditional styles and not only the classically influenced north-east style which Peter favours. Cape Bretoners come mostly from our Gaelic tradition and it seems perfectly natural for our young players to feed off that taproot of stepdance based music on occasion. In any event, on the day it was Anna's musicianship which clinched it for me. |
Simon T
Posts: 6410
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Posted:
26 Nov 2004 at 17:10 |
I read this article (well, skimmed!) and felt quite anooyed at Peter Zanre's comments. Obviously there is room for everyone to have an opinion but that attitude (in my opinion) is was what will kill trad music stone dead. We all should respect the fiddlers that want to stay put and respect the experimental ones.
I don't think there is any difference between folk and trad. They are both 4 letter words for a start. I call myself a folkie a lot however I would say I play traditional music. Traditional to me means all forms of fiddle styles. |
JAJ
Posts: 10751
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Posted:
27 Nov 2004 at 13:46 |
Thanks for all the replies so far and I would agree with most of the comments.
I'd still like to hear from a few more fiddlers, though. I know there's quite a few here including a couple of the "Blazers" who have posted in other threads recently. |
akenatune
Posts: 15
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Posted:
27 Nov 2004 at 14:01 |
| I too get annoyed when some people get precious about the interpretation of tunes. Surely what really matters is how well the music is played. If we were still playing traditional music the way it was played when I was a teenager, I don't think you would see the current level of interest amongst the younger generation. I am not advocating we forget about playing styles, but a healthy interest in moving things on is no bad thing. Having travelled around the festival circuit, it can be quite disappointing when you see spirited performances being overlooked in preference to a less good performance played in the preferred style of the adjudicator, but I suppose that's what you have to accept if you enter festivals. It's one person's opinion at that point in time. |
deeka
Posts: 39
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Posted:
27 Nov 2004 at 14:10 |
| I have read that in Cape Breton there are no fiddle contests (they are "banned"), thus there are no adjudicators that might otherwise impose their idea of the "standards". When a young player starts to tailor his/her style to be in line with "what the judges like" what happens to creativity? |
ross
Posts: 14
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Posted:
28 Nov 2004 at 00:25 |
When playing in competition you are not tailoring your style to the judges, you are performing the music the way in which it was intended to be played. To win MAJOR competitions in Scotland you must show a clear understanding of all the various techniques and at the same time introduce an individual style to distinguish you from the rest. This is what makes a good player.
I fail to understand why Cape Breton believes 'creativity' can be compromised in competition. I don't see how creativity has anything to do with competing. The tunes that you are required to play (such as 2/4 pipe marches, 4/4 marches, strathspeys, hornpipes, slow strathspeys, slow airs etc) have already been created by exponents of the music who are/were fully versed in traditional techniques. Creativity therefore has no part in competition.
There are however competitions throughout Scotland for 'Own compositions' in which anyone can submit there own composition to be judged. This is more a measure of creativity.
To summarise, the major competitions which demand strict guidlines on the player are a measure of the players ability to be able to maintain discipline in his/her playing and at the same time produce a musical quality and individuality. The competitions regarding Own Compostions are to help in maturing creativity and broadening the players knowledge of musical structure by introducing and developing new tunes to keep the music moving forward. Perhaps the real reason for banning competitions in Cape Breton is because there is no one qualified to judge.
Being a Traditional fiddler myself i am also writing my own tunes and playing a mix of trad and folk fiddling and having fun, i suppose thats what it's all about in the end.
cheers |
mv
Posts: 256
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Posted:
28 Nov 2004 at 01:01 |
OK, John, I'm guessing you would like me to contribute to your thought provoking thread. After having read the latest post i was compelled, to say the least! Ross, I tend to disagree with all of your post. Firstly, ofcourse by competing in a scottish fiddle competition you must tailor your style to suit the the judge(s), otherwise you wont win. I know this from experience. By suggesting you are playing the music "as it was meant to be played" is very short sighted. Did you ever hear a recording of a Neil Gow tune played by Neil Gow? The dots on the page are merely a guidline for referral. To then say you must introduce an individual style to distinguish you from the rest is contradictory to the point you make throughout your post. Having an "individual" style must have a lot to do with creativity surely?
"you must show a clear understanding of all the various techniques..... This is what makes a good player"
No no no no no.
"Perhaps the real reason for banning competitions in Cape Breton is because there is no one qualified to judge"
This screams musical bigotry to me.
Anna would have won her competition because she was not only technically better (yet non comformist) but also a better musician. She is a very creative player.
Thanks very much.
Mike Vass
a few fiddlers all trying to play in exactly the same style, playing exactly the same tunes with little feeling and little musicality, as per competition setting, is boring. (this is my personal opinion you can maybe ignore this last thought)
Further, kitchen piping is much more enjoyable to listen to than competition piping. |
ross
Posts: 14
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Posted:
28 Nov 2004 at 12:15 |
I think you miss understand me Mike. I was not talking about the dots on the page but more the techniques required to play them. You also cut my quote short
"you must show a clear understanding of all the various techniques and at the same time introduce an individual style to distinguish you from the rest. This is what makes a good player."
I don't understand why you left the last couple of lines out when this surely agrees with what your trying to say.
To touch on your comments regarding competition players having little feeling and musicality, it amazes me that you don't think this is musical bigotry. Are you really going to make these comments to previous winners such as Douglas Lawrence, Charlie McKerron, Donald Montgomery, Paul Anderson, Alistair McCulloch and myself.
In regards to your comments on Kitchen piping being preferred to competition piping. I believe that the best of pipers out there as with fiddle players have all come from and WON in the major competition scene.
I do however agree with you in that it is important to broaden your musical horizons and not follow one path. I just believe that competition playing like classical training is the best basis you can have to further develop your styles.
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mv
Posts: 256
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Posted:
28 Nov 2004 at 13:12 |
| Ah ok, I like your final paragraph. I just felt that in your original post you were suggesting that the competition style of fiddling was the be all and end all. I still disagree with your comment that the best of fiddlers come from winning in the major competition circuit. There are plenty fiddlers who have not won major competitions (although they may have entered), yet still are exponents of exceptional fiddling. I still stand by my statement that there is a lack of feeling and musicality at these competitions, because you are moulding your playing to someone elses guidlines. I'm not suggesting that you and the other winners have no musicality or feeling. I just feel it is lost somewhat by the need to play exactly as is, with no room for a little creativity and fun. |
Baggie
Posts: 93
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Posted:
28 Nov 2004 at 22:47 |
What exactly is the point of competitions???
At a young age competitions may help give you something to aim for, something to improve your technique... but what about adult competitons?
Quite simply they are there to prove the you are the best player there (or at least the one who the judge likes the most...) The only reasons I can see for doing this is furthering you musical career or winning the available prize. Fair enough reasons, but I doubt that this will lead to better players. Instead it will only result in the *players who win the competition* being noticed.
An extreme of this is the piping world, where if you don't win competitions you aren't noticed at all. Ok, I can name a lot of goodplayers who have rarely competed - Annie Grace, Angus Mackenzie, etc, but they are only really know in the folk world. If you asked an average piper what they thought of Angus Mackenzie from Daimh's playing was like, 90% would never have heard of Daimh, never mind Angus.
Ross mentioned that a lot of the best pipers in the folk world have previously won competitons. This is because there are very few pipers who HAVEN'T competed. We are brought up from the beginning with the aim of competing. Of course the best players in the folk world have competed, almost all pipers have.
What competitions in piping has done is created amazing techncially perfect, but DULL, DULL, DULL, players. Although I believe they have a place among learners to give something to aim for, if taken too far, competitions can totally kill musicality and creativeness.
P.S It's not sour grapes, I competed until a couple of years ago and did ok in them. It was interesting however that a lot of my crit sheets said "Very musical playing"
Was it that other people were playing unmusically, and if so why? They were all however technically perfect. Hmm....
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JAJ
Posts: 10751
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Posted:
29 Nov 2004 at 14:36 |
I still have difficulty with the use of the word "traditional" to describe the narrow view that Peter Zanre and like minded individuals seem to hold. Surely, all styles of fiddle music are traditional(though this might exclude some modern tunes)?
It's a bit like traditional versus organic farming methods, I suppose. Or Alternative medicine.
I mean organic farming methods(where they used real shecht etc) actually predates the so called traditional methods which are prevalent today. Likewise, herbal cures etc also preceded modern medicine. So, perhaps "conventional" would be a better description for the style of fiddling that Zanre would prefer.
All this reminds me that for many years the Edinburgh Highland Strathspey and Reel Society refused to play any music by Scott Skinner as it was "too modern". :-) So, all this isn't new. |
Rob_Steele
Posts: 58
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Posted:
29 Nov 2004 at 16:47 |
I agrees with what you're saying John J apart from the bit about the exclusion of modern tunes. Many modern tunes are written in a traditional style and even the ones that arent ie ones with jazz influences can still be played in a traditional style.
I think that, although the tunes do contribute, it is the way tunes are played that makes something 'in a style'.
Dan |
JAJ
Posts: 10751
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Posted:
29 Nov 2004 at 16:54 |
| I only meant *some* modern tunes. Of course, those which are composed/played in the traditional idiom would qualify too. |
Rob_Steele
Posts: 58
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Posted:
29 Nov 2004 at 16:56 |
But even those composed not in a traditional idiom can be played traditionally. Thats what i was saying.
Dan |
J Low
Posts: 71
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Posted:
29 Nov 2004 at 17:03 |
Hi, me again.
I just wanted to add that, in the current celtic music scene, it is often the backing that gives the music (or indeed a solo fiddler) a distinctively jazzy flavour. My playing changes dramatically depending on who is backing me.
For example, the playing you hear on guitar or bouzouki from the 60s/70s scene rolled along and was quite straight in it's rhythm. I know some great backers who play like this and it brings out my real traditional side.
But in the context of my closest musical allies - for example Sean O'Donnell and Martin O'Neill (a fearsome rhythm combination) - I find myself going into totally different territory, playing with the rhythm and going off on improvisational tangents. Sure, tis great craic.
What do you think John J. Is it perhaps in the backing that the real revolution in the way folk music is played has taken shape? |
JAJ
Posts: 10751
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Posted:
29 Nov 2004 at 17:04 |
| That's true as well. "Hey Jude" by De Danann, for example. |
J Low
Posts: 71
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Posted:
29 Nov 2004 at 17:10 |
| Such a coincidence you mentioned that John J. I did a session in Dunoon on Sunday and the pub happened to have a busload of Scousers in it. I played that very set with Hey Jude as the original then a hornpipe. The place erupted. But then we got requests for all the other Beatles stuff, which I am yet to attempt to folkify! |
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