Sorry, Jamie. I was replying to Rob but we posted at the same time.
Re your last question. Yes, I think changes in style are often driven by the arrangements of other instruments eg the backing.

I have up until now read with interest the various threads and comments. However on this occassion I am compelled to add a comment. I have been an avid fan of various fiddle music for some 40 years now, it would be difficult for me to say what prefferences I have concerning the so called traditionalists or folk players as described in this thread becauses I enjoy both. However and without any name dropping to apparently give some form of credentials to my comment, which after 40 years is not required, I have known a number of fiddle players who have a foot in each of the two camps and are all great players at what they do. My observations however would require me to say that the few players who attempt to play outwith their so called style ie traditional or folk, I would have to say that the traditionalists are far more adaptable in this respect, the reason I believe is to do with their training. I have enjoyed listening to many folk fiddle players, I have never heard and do not agree with the comment that traditional training can or will lead to 'DULL' players, on the conterary, I belive it leads to a more rebust and rounded player. 'Why compete' that was a question in someones comments, who then goes on to say that they have also competed, maybe they should ask themselves the reason why they did so, or is it now obscured by the fact that they have never been succesfull. The reason is that many more of these players will be successfull as a musician due to the deserved recognition of their ability. This abilty is not just the robotic traditional techniques but more about the indivduals creative ability to make them stand out from others. I am not saying that this does not exist in the folk style but I would have to conceed that it is less prominent.

I am sure from these comments that people may think that I favour the so called traditionalists. I will finish by reminding them of my opening statement. My comments have taken this direction as a consequence of some of the comments made on this subject.

In response to the previous comment :

"is it now obscured by the fact that they have never been succesfull."

I think, if memory serves from previous postings, Baggie has indeed been successful in the "folk" arena and honoured with the rest of his band on the Danny Kyle stage of Celtic Connections.

The last respondant perhaps should read the quote properly within its context, which clearly suggested success in terms of competition in the traditional style. I fully appreciate the success within the folk scene. Which is yet further example of someone unable mirror this achievement within the traditional style.

Bill, I appreciate your comments here.
Perhaps you could explain why the style of music you would describe as traditional is any more traditional than many of the "folk styles" some of which predate the so called "traditional style". There have always been fiddlers and, in the earlier days, there would probably have been many more who weren't musically trained who just "picked up" tunes as they went along. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, perhaps "conventional" or "orthodox" might be a better description than "traditional". Surely, most fiddle music is traditional.
Like you, I can listen to and appreciate different styles of fiddle playing and I agree that the training and discipline can only be of ultimate benefit to young players. I wish I had that opportunity. However, I am still interested to know why you describe this style as traditional whereas others are merely "folk".

Hi John,

I though I made it clear that this was not my description, however it seemed to me that various threads I have read were using it. So in the absence of a suitable description I continued in this idium. It is clear despite the possible inaccuracies in describing both idiums that everyone seems to understand the destiction made and as the principle is not so much what we call them rather what is the difference.... lets get back to that.

Sorry Bill, I've now read your original post more closely and can see that you've taken an impartial view.
However, where you, I, and probably most other contributors here understand the differences, these terms can cause confusion to newcomers and casual listeners to fiddle music. So, that's why I was concerned enough to ask the question originally.

I was interested to read Ian Robertson's illumanating article on the Glenfiddich in Box & Fiddle. (nice photie and write-up, Ross!)

Ian pointed out that all competitors played in "the North East, Hector McAndrew style" and fair enough.

It was his added comment "in the past some have played in the Shetland style or slipped in a modern reel in the 'folky' Celtic Connections style but they never really got anywhere" that had me choking on my Shreddies! Well, that's you told, Aly Bain, Catriona MacDonald, Mark Laurenson et al! And what was the point, in an invitation contest of ever asking people who were known not to play the North East way?

I do realise Ian was referring specifically to the Glenfiddich but it does seem to be very narrow to suggest that one of a number of long established local or regional styles is more 'correct' than all the others!

Having just read a comment in SYTA winner thread, I thought this might be a good time to ressurect this thread.....

It was the one about "folk musician of the year" as opposed to "traditional musician of the year"

:-)

...

Banning competitions. What a great idea. All we have to do is look at the damage competitions have done to our songs, our language and our culture in general.

Singers who are unable to string five words of Gaelic together in a sentence, some of whom are
anti-Gaelic yet perform for one and all and know little about what they are singing or playing etc, etc, Judges who preside over music and who have done so for years and cannot even speak Gaelic. How can they know either the ruitheam involved when they don't even have it in their head naturally.
This is part of the reason why we have minor classical singers using a style that has nothing to do with the sounds of the Gaelic language. Unfortunately, some singers seem to go along this road to gain fame and why not?

To think the tradition of the house ceilidh where tradition flourished was overtaken by silly concerts. How very, very sad.

The semantics here are confusing the issue. Although those who use the two words "folk" and "traditional" and have in their own mind an idea of how they differentiate between them, there is not much consensus as to what the two words actually mean in the context of Scottish (or other) music. In actual fact I would suggest that in a strict definition, they mean virtually the same thing, and these words are not the property of either side of the divide in this discussion.

Those playing a Slow Air, Slow Strathspey, March Strathspey and Reel in the style that we would generally expect to hear at a fiddle competition are in fact playing "folk music", as it is the music identified with a country. It is also traditional music, so what is the difference? The difference seems to be the style and approach to the music. "Traditional", as used by those who seek to promote the competition style refers to the strict, disciplined playing within the unwritten but generally known rules of style applicable to fiddle competitions, and "folk", as used by some of these same proponents is used as a sometimes disparaging term for the more individual, less defined style adopted by artistes who chose to go their own way and do their own thing.

In over forty years of fiddle playing, I have seen the trend away from what I have defined above as the "traditional" style, and during that time, funnily enough, I have become more broad minded about what I appreciate. I am aware that the "traditional" style would not have a substantial market in what is known as "traditional music", and sense that there is a commercial driver in much of the innovation that has gone on in the fiddle music world during that forty years. One positive thing that I have seen in recent years is the fact that many of the younger players are bringing out tunes from some of the older collections which have been neglected for many years, and I also have tried to do my bit in this respect.

Some questions:

Is it regrettable that so many young players are opting to move away from the "traditional" fiddle style?

Is it going to lead to an eventual loss of identifiable Scottish styles through the adoption of tunes and styles from other traditions and "mix and match"?

Is commercial expediency being put before loyalty to national musical identity?

Is it all part of worldwide musical evolution where the differences between national traditions become blurred?

I didn't intend this to be a ramble, but it has turned out that way.

None. Peoples different perception of what traditional is means that it's only a very general description, as is folk. Some people cling onto what they think of as traditional and believe all else is sacrilege. Some folk think music hall type stuff is the true tradition. Some folk think accordion dance bands are the true tradition. Some folk think kitchen ceilidhs are the true tradition. Nutters the lot of them.

And by the way Interested, surely you are aware that kitchens here in the Highlands are barely 100 years old, if that. hardly enough time to create a definitive tradition. What in generally now the kitchen was the bit the cows lived in.

Hey, just been havin a quick read at some comments on this topic. As you all have your own interpretation of the differences(if any), so do fiddle players interpret the music in their own way. Is that not what makes trad/folk music unique and identifiable?

Style could be influenced by many ,many things, and develop with experience and skills. Old or new, there are no rules?

As a fiddler myself, as well as judging at big festivals/comps, I always try to look for individuality- something I would perhaps recognise again. It is not always about technique and a perfect performance. Certainly playing in tune helps but the bowing arm tells the story, not the fingerboard..................

Banning competitions is a fairly radical idea. How would the ordinary punter know if they liked a performer if s/he didn't have a string of competition wins to their name?

Throughtout the years I haved tried to define in my head the difference between folk and traditional and come up with a different answer each time. Everyone has a different idea and usually when you look at it closely there are flaws in their argument that mean we all end up agreeing. I don't think young folks have opted to move away just that the regional styles nowadays are blended with globalness of everything - new CDs, books, TV etc. Community has changed. The reason Shetland style has remained (and that has also changed) is due to the remoteness of their island. Perth is going to find it harder to keep their styles intact.

For what it's worth, one of the most enjoyable concerts of last year for me was the afternoon one at the 2008 Niel Gow Festival.
It was grand to hear Jenna and Bethany Reid, Pete Clark and Raemond Jappy playing in their different styles. The festival also included the Young Trad winner Ruaridh MacMillan and old West Coast master Angus Grant and several other fine players.
All of these performers easily fitted any definition of trad or folk.

If you ask me, we don't hear half enough from players like Raemond. There is something about the air/march/ strathspey and reel type of approach that I find quite stirring and it shouldn't be something that you mostly hear at competitions.
As regards the Nova Scotia/ folk influence creeping in; I was lucky to have some tunes with JP Cormier in September - just the 2 of us on mandolins - and he was coming out with great tunes, particularly hornpipes, which I didn't know at all and assumed were Canadian. Not so - they were by the likes of Gow and Marshall. They were also in various different keys which made a change from the main ones you nearly always get at sessions. Jerry Holland used to play quite a few Marshall tunes on the 'Master Cape Breton Fiddler' record. Sometimes I think we forget how good these tunes are. I know there are lots of good tunes being written today, but I would like to hear 'folk' players tackling the Gow, Marshall and Skinner stuff a lot more.

Am with Onny on this: competitons should be stopped.

Yes I agree Gordon, many of the old tunes are really great but are just in hibernation. The Skye, Argyll and Gunn collections also contain hundreds of these tunes. I don't think they are disappearing as you hear 'new' old ones getting played all the time. In fact, though this may be regional, I'd go as far as saying I've noticed the resurgence of a lot of these tunes lately. I reckon it's because of the sheer numbers of people now playing trad, far, far more than when I first started. They are always looking for tunes to vary their repertoires and these collections are becoming more important than they have been for years. Far from new tunes and styles replacing the more 'traditional' stuff it's giving much of it a new lease of life IMO.