Are there no proceedures involved in changing the rules of such an organisation. I had always heard in Canada that these Feis were a vital part as a Gaelic foundation stone. Indeed an essential cornerstone of Gaelic language and cultural development in Scotland.
With 3 million Scots speakers in Scotland if not 4 million speakers surely they have the means and the organisational ability to set up Scots organisations for this very purpose.
What surprises me more than anything is that it can occur so easily.

Interested were you an LP in a previous incarnation,you seem to be stuck on GGGGGGaelic rightousness mode,were you beaten incessantly by the Wee Free?(but not on a sunday as it's their day off from sanctimonious activity).Always said they should have let the bairns play on the swings.

Being brain-washed into thinking that there is only one culture that counts for anything and that just happens to be the English culture in whatever format was never part of our way. Having Micmah, Acadian, and many others languages and cultures nearby was natural. Sad to report the only culture most Scots have access to is the English culture while what is left of the Gaelic language and culture in Scotland is even derided by the very people who should be out there keeping it alive and vital.

Ah but were you allowed to play on the swings on a Sunday?

Interested and Boula2,

I can see what you're saying, but quite honestly there is so much unhappiness and things wrong in this world that I find it hard to credit you can get so pissed off with something like a few Scottish songs in a wee groupwork class for kids.

Well said, Gordon! A look at the bigger picture makes it obvious that if there is a way to enthuse young people, it should be applauded.
Bringing youngsters into traditional music with an unselfconscious attitude that accepts songs and tunes as a source of delight is surely the way to start, and any teacher will tell you that students respond better to lessons that are not overly loaded with "medicine that is good for you". There has to be a sense that pursuit of the ideas generated in classes such as Gordon's is the choice of individual pupils, and some will race off with the bit between their teeth. But once that interest and curiosity is aroused, who knows where it will lead?
The answer is that it will lead to the teachers/leaders/enthusers of the future, and there will be little prospect of any advancement of the music or language if the training base is not broadened in this way. Perhaps the language will find its stimulus in the increasing provision of Gaelic medium schools, which will then feed competent young speakers back into the Feis movement, but if the music provision there were to be constrained and controlled, it could wipe out all that lovely enthusiasm.
So it's all about how to find a good starting point, and Gordon has made a good case for what he is doing, in my opinion.

Interested, you could do with starting an organisation of your own. Maybe you could call it the 'Gaidhliban'.

The whole premise of your argument is faulty. There is no such thing as 'English culture'. A myriad English cultures on the one hand, and many cultures where English is the language on the other, but no 'English culture'.

Totally agree with Allan, Anne and Dagger. What Dagger is doing is giving his young charges an introduction to folk culture in the widest sense. There's every possibility that kids learning a chorus or two of a folk song (in any language) could be enthused to dig deeper. Look at all the people who got into folk music in the 50s and 60s through being introduced to American songs. They recognised something there, sensed that there must be something similar in their own backyard and were inspired to start looking. And here's the crucial thing. Because of the existence of an organisation like FnG they won't have to look very hard or very far if Dagger's sessions fire up a curiosity about Gaelic song or language.

Gaelic remains very much central to the ethos of Fèis Rois and indeed the entire Fèis movement.

I am amazed at the interest show in this wee class of Dagger's!

Dagger has spent most of this term working on Cearcall a' Chuain and Tuireadh Iain Ruaidh with his wee group work class (6 participants). The class is in fact called "beginning to play together" because it is for younger children (mostly primary school age) who have only been playing for 6 - 18 months or so and who want to learn about playing in a group. I have no problem at all with Dagger exploring other songs with his class (none of whom are Gaelic speakers).

At this musical after school club on a Thursday, Fiona J MacKenzie runs a separate Gaelic song class for young people. The hub of activity also includes several fiddle and guitar classes and a tin whistle class, where tutors are encourage to teach Highland and Gaelic repertoire. I know one of the fiddle classes has been working on Allan's tune, Buntàta 's Sgadan and also Còta Mòr Ealasaid - the class were taught to sing the words before learning to play this tune.

As someone who had no Gaelic at all, but went to the Fèis to play the fiddle and learn "cool" tunes when I was at school, I eventually "clicked" in my late teens that the music I was playing was intrinsically linked to the language and I was inspired to go onto study Celtic Studies and learn Gaelic. There are many of us who have been inspired to learn the language through our experiences at Fèisean.

A fine example of a young singer who marries Gaelic Song and Scots Song is Maeve McKinnon. In fact, did she not record Wild Rover on her first album?

Boula2 said to Allan MacDonald:
" I do not understand now, how or why, a man such as your standing in the world of the Gael, would gratefully give credence to English song being part of the Feis brief. "

I'd say that Allan was talking out of realism. Read his post again and you'll see plenty of very negative stuff in there:
" It has changed because the original intentions have watered down. They have watered down because people are not speaking the language enough in their homes and in their communities. "

" However, reality does not allow much more than tokenism in many instances. "

" I had to come to Northern Ireland to hear good Scottish songs... "

We don't live in an ideal world, so compromises are required. A Féis on the wrong side of the Minch needs to comprise on the language front and cooperate with English and/or Scots.

Would fascistic féisean by fun? Far from it. In fact, fascist féisean would fail.

Realism in action.

Here we go again, in response to this and another thread "Gaelic language at Fèisean" (with a grave accent!) ....

Fèisean do not exist to teach young people Gaelic, nor are they all held in the Gaelic medium. In fact only 6 out of the 45 Fèisean supported by Fèisean nan Gàidheal are Gaelic medium events, and great that they exist. As Allan said, that is the reality of the world we live in.

Fèisean worked with 6,530 individual young people in 2008-09, against a backdrop of only around 2,200 pupils in Gaelic medium primary schools and units, and probably fairly few over and above that who speak Gaelic in their home but do not go through a Gaelic education.

We seem to be able to get to many more young people than the formal education system and clearly using music as a means of encouraging people to engage positively with Gaelic has worked. While 6 out of the 45 Fèisean are entirely through the medium of Gaelic, a good number of other Fèisean deliver at least some of their classes in Gaelic and nearly all Fèisean now teach Gaelic language, at a fairly elementary level, for all participants. Recently we have approved a strengthened policy that will mean that all Fèis tutors are going to have to engage in some Gaelic learning before they can be employed by a Fèis in activity funded by Fèisean nan Gàidheal.

Only around 6% of Fèisean nan Gàidheal's funding is 'Gaelic' funding for the purposes of strengthening the Gaelic language. But Fèisean nan Gàidheal is a Gaelic organisation with a Gaelic policy and a Gaelic-speaking staff who communicate in Gaelic. All our Board papers are prepared in Gaelic and English, and our Annual General and Board meetings are held in Gaelic with simultaneous translation. Staff meetings are in Gaelic and all our staff receive ongoing Gaelic training.

How the Fèisean themselves deliver on our Gaelic policy varies from place to place. However, each Fèis has a Gaelic development plan of its own in order to increase the use of the language in Fèis activities year-on-year. This was initiated long before talk of Gaelic plans for public bodies and other organisations, but was in response to the criticism at that time from some quarters (which still prevails) that the Fèisean did very little to develop Gaelic language.

This began with a fairly light approach, where each Fèis had to submit a statement of intent as to what they could do in terms of Gaelic development. As the organisation has grown, and gained the capacity to help them do more, those Fèis ‘statements’ have turned into more formal plans. As the plans have become more formalised, so too have the conditions of grant we impose in relation to their implementation and staff monitor them quite closely, and offer hands-on support, where appropriate.

The result of this way of working is that research carried out by the RSAMD in 2006 found that 76% of respondents reported that participation in Fèis activities had resulted in a positive or strong positive influence on their motivation to learn Gaelic, while 79% reported a positive or strong positive influence on their attitude to Gaelic.

This backs up what Fìdhlear (with a grave) has said. She is an example of someone who learned Gaelic as a result of attending a Fèis and there are loads more like her. If you translate percentages into today's numbers, 79% would be 5,158 of Fèis participants being positively or strongly positively influenced on their attitude to Gaelic.

If you look at what Fèisean nan Gàidheal does in addition to its core support of local Fèisean - Blas Festival (all events feature Gaelic, all publicity is bilingual, the website is entirely bilingual); Sgoil Shamhraidh Dhràma (Gaelic drama summer school with tuition and finished works in Gaelic); YMI tuition in schools (delivered in Gaelic in Gaelic-medium schools); Tuition Resources (Ceòl nam Fèis, Fiddle Tutor etc all in Gaelic and English); Meanbh-Chuileag (our theatre-in-education 'arm' which incidentally produced what is thought to have been the first Gaelic and Scots children's book) - the leverage or 'bang for the buck' that the 'Gaelic' funds we get produces seems quite impressive. Including the 6,530 taking part in Fèisean themselves, all our activities reach an audience of over 39,000 people. If we could get even 10% of them interested in learning and using Gaelic, that would be a hugely positive step.

The Fèisean certainly deliver on our Gaelic aims but that doesn't mean there's no room for improvement. It also doesn't mean, as we have seen in Fèisean like Fèis sa Mheadhan and Fèis Fhoirt that they are not a powerful tool in bringing Scottish cultures - Gaelic and non-Gaelic - together. While that is not their raison d'être, if it's a by-product of what they achieve, then why knock it in a country where there are already too many artificial divisions? I don't see that as watering down the Gaelic element of a Fèis but introducing more people to Gaelic in a fun and non-threatening (though I cannot see why anyone would be 'threatened' by Gaelic) way!

I have always tried to attend Feis concerts in areas I may be at the time, and I go back to the early days also. What gives me great satisfaction over those years is to see family, nieces, nephews etc at the concerts, hearing what has been achieved during their week of learning. This is a rare opportunity during the year to attend such an event, and hearing the good going Gaelic songs and music being handed over to hopefully safe hands.

There are countless opportunities for learning Scottish songs, - sung in English - at other numerous events over the year.

In recent years however it has been the subject of great annoyance to many, not just myself, that songs in English seem to be creeping in with increments that cause concern. One Feis concert recently had not one single Gaelic song in the first half ! So Sorry! the idea of this leading to The Wild Rover or its ilk (as stated at the beginning of this thread) on the agenda, is much more than I could bear.
Not that I don’t enjoy those songs, however its horses for courses, and certainly not at a Feis Concert.

Anyhow surprisingly, it would appear then that this has full backing from the top, so I suggest its time to change this in the Feis brief, so as not to give families the wrong impression of what a modern version of a Feis truly consists of .

No one will ever convince me that The Wild Rover can ever be part in any shape or form of a Feis, if so - then for sure, another nail in the coffin for the future existence of Gaelic culture.

Boula2,

Most of us would like to see more Gaelic at ceilidhs. But believe me, I used to go to some supposedly 'Gaelic' ceilidhs at least 35 years ago and hear hardly any Gaelic back then. You were much more likely to hear songs like The Waters Of Kylesku (sung in English), maybe a bit of piping and some accordion playing and were fairly unlikely to even hear any fiddle playing. The accordion playing wasn't always very Gaelic-orientated either.
I can tell you that the situation is a great deal better now and virtually all the credit for this goes to the Feis movement.

Going back to the class for a moment, let me point out that I have NOT in fact been working on The Wild Rover! That particular song seems to really get your goat. I am asking for songs which people think all young Scots should know, and I'm not worried if they are 'dross' in your book. I will select songs which I think will best suit my purpose.

Out of interest, if you were doing a 'beginning to play together' class with children of fairly limited instrumental ability who did not speak Gaelic, what would you do? Why would you not encourage them to sing?

I would not assume that your area was a total representation of the bygone days.

If it was my say I would have only bi-lingual people teaching Gaelic song at a Feis, starting at least with, - as was suggested on here, - the basic Gaelic choruses.

I personally would employ yourself for your musical skills for this event.

Boula 2: You're misinterpreting what I said.

It would be of great concern to me if non-Gaelic songs took over from Gaelic songs at Fèisean. I would be interested to know (privately, if you like) which Fèis concert you attended where there were no Gaelic songs in the whole of a first half. I have heard non-Gaelic songs before at Fèis concerts but usually from the guitar class, which is an accompanying instrument on the whole, and usually because the guitar tutor does not have Gaelic. But the Gaelic content would far outweigh any non-Gaelic content. Gaelic songs classes produce Gaelic songs and groupwork classes work on Gaelic songs.

There is no diminution of the basic premise that Gaelic is an important element of each and every Fèis. If there is, then the funding for that Fèis would be in doubt! There is no need to redefine any Fèisean nan Gàidheal aims and objectives. If you read them properly you'll see that they are being delivered on.

Is it not just as valuable that young people going to Fèisean get Gaelic lessons, that they introduce their pieces in Gaelic even although the tune might not be Gaelic in origin? Do the Fèisean not promote Gaelic usage in other ways other than through song? If more Fèis tutors learn Gaelic, and teach in Gaelic, does that necessarily mean that s/he would be able to sing Gaelic songs? I don't think so.

One day this might all be turned on its head and we might have people learning Scots songs through the medium of Gaelic - i.e. the song might be in Scots but the instruction might be in Gaelic. That would normalise Gaelic.

boula2,

That is exactly what happens in this case! Fèis Rois contracts a bilingual singer to lead a weekly Gaelic song class (i.e. Fiona MacKenzie) and a multi-instrumentalist (i.e. Dagger) to lead a weekly group work class, which currently has fiddlers, a guitarist, a couple of mandolins and six children who are all happy to sing in it.

Fèis Rois always contracts bi-lingual Gaelic song tutors. In addition to Fiona MacKenzie and Calum-Alex MacMillan teaching weekly classes, Gaelic song tutors at residential Fèis Rois events in 2009 have included Maggie MacDonald, Maeve MacKinnon (Barra), Maeve MacKinnon (Glasgow) and Kathleen Graham.

As far as possible, we try to contract bi-lingual tutors for all of our classes, e.g. at the recent Fèis Rois nan Deugairean event in October, seven of our instrumental tutors were fluent Gaelic speakers. Had you been at this particular Fèis concert, you would have heard plenty of Gaelic in the form of all introductions, songs and drama.

Arthur, I do not see anywhere in the Fèisean nan Gàidheal website that indicates Scots songs in English are included in the festival. Why not add that if one wishes to be correct and not confuse the moaners like myself.
The Fèis has changed from the early days and that is the facts, and backed up by many of the movers and shakers in the business, nothing stands still right enough, not even the world of the Gaelic Fèis.

Fidhlear, your explanation of the Fèis Rois set up perhaps offers a decent explanation of how Dagger's songs are actually used as an introduction to instruments, ....different ball game altogether.

Anyway I just hope the day never comes when I hear The Wild Rover at a Fèis.

I know what I want a Fèis to be, and I know there are people who very much agree with my points, anyhow it’s clarified and that is the way of it.

Anyway this Wild Rover is off to Glasgow for a couple of days, maybe find some of Allan’s Feis …….if I should be so lucky :-)

Glasgow.. ....that's sounds dangerously near.

What is the problem with The WIld Rover? Sung properly, say by Louis Killen or Jim Bainbridge, it is revealed as what it is, a beautiful English song.

Admittedly I have heard it massacred on many occasions but then I've heard dreadful renditions of everything from Handel's Hallelujah Chorus through An Ataireachd Ard to The Flowers o the Forest. ( Do you know, I heard a hip hop version of In Dulci Jubilo in Morrison's today!)

Encouraging children to sing is always a great thing. Getting children who don't have a Gaelic background to be comfortable and confident singing in Scots, and English, will help them with their Gaelic song as well.

I have never understood the obsession with numbers in Scotland rather than results in the number of
Fluent Gaelic speakers at the end of the day.
So what if 100,000 learners, learn 5 Gaelic songs in 5 years.
10 people learning Gaelic to fluency has a far better long term impact for the survival of Gaelic as a living language.
The notion that participants have a positive effect on learning a minority language to fluency just does not add up.

Numbers mean little or nothing without actual substance.